How Manipulators Work
Flattery is an insincere compliment designed to manipulate you. People flatter you to get what they want from you.
The connections created with flattery aren’t connections. They’re corruptions.
Flattery destroys connections and creates emptiness in everyone involved. Fake relationships drain us. They don’t sustain us.
Gifts that obligate aren’t gifts, they’re manipulations. In this case generosity is greed. The power of a gift is its expression of a connection not the obligation it creates.
Curiosity and Guilt:
Insincere curiosity is hypocritical manipulation.
Placing guilt and ascribing blame can be manipulation used to control your behavior for the benefit of others. Manipulative people want you to make it up to them.
Why manipulation works?
Needing approval, acceptance, and love makes you vulnerable to manipulation.
Fear based living opens the door to manipulation.
Arrogance creates vulnerability to manipulation.
Many years ago an experienced business man complimented the way I dressed. His compliment puffed up my arrogant spirit. I promptly began telling him how and why I chose my shoes and clothing. To this day, I want to run and hide when I recall my foolish behavior.
His compliment revealed and fed my arrogance. I don’t believe my friend manipulated me. However, his compliment shows my vulnerability to manipulation.
Overcoming and avoiding manipulation.
- Manipulators want your goals to become their goals. Identify and tenaciously cling to your own noble goals.
- Find harmony within yourself before looking for alignment with others.
- Determine if gifts express gratitude, appreciation, love, or greed.
- Identify your fears. They create vulnerability.
Don’t live life looking for a manipulator under every rock. However, be aware.
How do you spot manipulators?
What suggestions for overcoming manipulation can you suggest?
Leaders have to be very conscious of manipulation. Harriet B. Braiker in her book “Who’s Pulling Your Strings” speaks of another group of people who are prone to manipulation: people pleasers. Many leaders fall into this category. We want to please the people that we report to and those who entrusted us with a leadership position. We also want to be seen in a favorable light by those that we lead. We get caught in a web of manipulation from both sides.
How do we spot manipulators? First we look in the mirror and do a self assessment. Leaders can be master manipulators. There is a fine line between INFLUENCE and MANIPULATION. To be an effective leader you must stand firmly on the influential side. Two simple questions can help you decide what side of the fence you are on:
* What’s in it for me?
* What’s in it for them?
This same litmus test can help you weed out manipulators in your life. As your post noted, it is easy to fall victim to manipulation via flattery. The only way I have been able to counter this is to simply accept it at face value only and not let it change my focus as a leader.
A manipulator tends to set off your “Spidey Sense” and makes you feel uncomfortable. Don’t ignore that feeling! Discomfort is often a symptom of manipulation. I recently watch a Tyler Perry play in which his character “Madea” said that “If a person changes your environment, they have control.” This was said in reference to a person or persons who alter your mood by their very presence. If you break out in a nervous sweat when the person enters the room, there is a good chance that person has been manipulating you in some way. The same is true if you break out into giddy school girl laughter. Somehow they have been pulling your strings.
Manipulators can be bullies-some more subtle than others. You can spot a manipulator by the way that person communicates. There is a subtle difference between someone saying, “I’m so overwhelmed with all this paperwork!” and “I could use some help with this project.” Pay attention to the way a person COMMUNICATES. Is there a pattern of subtle suggestion? While some manipulators are very straightforward communicators, the ones that do the most damage are those that slowly and quietly alter your behavior for their benefit.
Wow! You gave us some great insights.
As I was reading, I thought of a fundamental distinguishing factor between manipulation and influence. I use influence with the idea that it’s positive and directed toward unselfish ends. The difference is authenticity.
Employing methods that don’t align with who we are as leaders makes us manipulators. (IMHO)
Thanks for joining the conversation.
Spidey sense….love it! If not spidey sense maybe something like a mood ring to call out the manipulators!
KC absolutely right about how, how much is communicated and how twisted their communication is…if you know the original message.
When you are talking with the person and you feel like you are starting to fall down a rabbit hole, then they might just be a manipulator.
It is a debatable discussion. Flattery destroys trust and respect. Those who flatter do not have either of them. But the person who take in positive way, also fall prey to flattery. Today, it is very difficult to get rid of such situations, because everywhere you will find them. They do so to survive and keep them position stronger. These people are usually self centric and do anything and everything starting from backstabbing, boot-licking, backbiting, kissing up, kicking down blob…
I have studied these people. They usually speak soft, curious to know your opinion to make issues, spread wrong information, blocks information, distort informations, meet frequently to bosses, sit late, come early and not available in between etc. They will visible to people less, always smiling, keeping their desk cluttered and messy, look busy and complaining in nature and whisper more even nobody is present around.
The perhaps best way to overcome them is to assign them tough task with deadlines. Discourage their feedbacks, appreciate performers publicly, appreciate information dissemination openly, deal harshly rumor mongers.
Put them more responsible tasks and ask straight questions with straight answers.
There are so many way to spot and control them, but it depends upon leadership transparency and will.
So I’m reading your comment and nearly fall off my chair when I see your practical advice for dealing with manipulators that don’t perform – Assign them tough tasks with deadlines! Great stuff.
Of course we should be careful that they don’t manipulate their way out of their tasks.
Thank you for adding value,
Ajay is a featured contributor on Leadership Freak. Read his bio at http://leadershipfreak.wordpress.com/ajay-gupta
So it is apparent that manipulators attempt to blow smoke and ‘shape shift’ so that they can bob and weave and do not have to be accountable.
Ajay has the solution, use a variation on the SMART approach…specific, measurable, attainable/accountable, realistic and time limited.
Ajay, I love your recommended approach for dealing with manipulators. Keep them busy with a tough job and hold them accountable! You hit the nail on the head when you stated “Discourage their feedbacks, appreciate performers publicly, appreciate information dissemination openly, deal harshly rumor mongers.” Manipulators can become like a virus within an organization. Your approach stops the virus in it’s tracks and keeps everyone on task. Thank you for your added insight!
You can spot manipulators because they only come around when they want something. The same rule applies here as any relationship: if what you care about is the other person, the connection will be forged spirit to spirit, absent any agenda on either side. Example: If you have always spent time talking with your kids just to be with them and because you’re interested, they will talk to you when they have tough times. If you only talk to your kids when you want them to change something, then you’re a manipluatlor. Same is true at church, at work, in the neighborhood . . .
Wow, worst ever spelling of manipulator (manipluatlor? really?) Sorry everyone.
@Greg- Great point! Everything I’ve learned about leadership I learned from my children. This concept of open and frequent communication is what has led many companies to utilize social media as a way to connect with their customers. Companies that have opened the doors of communication this way, find that they are striving even in tough economic times. Communication and trust go hand in hand.
Misspellings encourage me. 😉
Love your topic sentence… they come around when they want something. We are back to “real relationships” protect us from manipulation.
This is great stuff! I needed to hear it. Thanks for sharing. BTW- I’m serious! Good stuff!!
So you aren’t trying to manipulate me with a compliment? 🙂
You are the only one who listens to us Dan! You are the best listener ever! 😉
Ok Doc, what do you want? You can have it! 🙂
This is one of my greatest weaknesses – I tend to trust people and believe they are being genuine… which leaves me open to manipulation. Thanks for the insights.
Barbara – this is NOT a weakness; it’s a strength of yours. A person’s ability to trust others are genuine is a major strength. People NOT trusting others is a weakness. People who get ‘burned’ and STOP trusting is a weakness. Not yours – just learn the symptoms of the manipulator who is using manipulation for EVIL and not good. (Parents and others use manipulation everyday to get their kids or followers to do GOOD, enlightening others to options and benefits is also manipulation).
Trust yourself and continue trusting others; just don’t trust the same person twice if they disappoint! As an old country song put it, “I don’t whisper into the wind to try to change the world, I whisper into the wind so that the world doesn’t change ME.”
Dave – @coach_Jonesy on twitter
What a great encouragement. Thanks for sharing your insights.
Great advice, David! Barbara, this is not a call for you to become a cynic or paranoid. You can not allow a manipulators shortcomings to become your weakness. A paranoid leader is an ineffective leader. Discernment is the key and this post along with the comments have given you some great tools to weed out the manipulators.
Great question, Dan. This is one I struggle with. Sometimes its really obvious, but other time it’s subtle and hard to tell. I think it’s because this is about one’s intentions and the exact same behaviors can be sincere from one person and manipulative by another. I like to give people the benefit of a doubt and assume they are being sincere. When I was younger, there were times this cause a lot of disappointment for me because I trusted naively. I’ve learned over the years to balance openness and trust with keeping my eyes open; even though still it doesn’t always work.
I think one of the problems is that many times manipulation is unconscious- that we’re not aware of what’s driving our behavior. I think it’s important to examine our own motives when we have the urge to give or offer help. Sometimes I am surprised to discover that beneath my feelings of generosity are also a desire to get something. When that happens, I usually don’t offer because it makes things messy.
Thanks for your comment. It’s ripe with honesty and real life.
Love the observation that it’s not about the behavior but the intent. That’s so good.
I concur with your observation that sometimes we don’t even realize we are manipulating others until we examine our motives. It’s a process.
Thanks for your generosity.
As usual you are spot on. However, I wanted to just add one thing because in my opinion, the terms manipulate and manipulator have always gotten bad raps. I entirely agree with all you stated in how important it is for people to be ABLE to spot a manipulator BUT: I think it is even MORE important to be able to spot the MOTIVE for the manipulation.
This is because we as a society rely on manipulation being performed for the sake of anarchy. Okay I’m being dramatic for humor – BUT it’s true. Parents, sports coaches, teachers and really – leaders, all manipulate. The difference is that the desired result should be to empower, teach or benefit the child, student or follower.
In closing, manipulation is extremely beneficial to our existence – we must know how to spot when the power is used for good and not evil! 🙂
Dave – @coach_Jonesy on twitter
Interesting take on manipulation. As you indicate the difference between good and bad is the intent or goal.
Thanks for this comment and for responding to Barbara. I appreciate your insights.
What a fascinating set of comments already! This is one of those “anecdotes from college” that really should have never happened but that’s why we have hindsight, right?
In college, I participated in an application process to be on the homecoming court at my University. I don’t know how many applicants there were, perhaps 50 for 10 places, and the finalists ran for the title of Homecoming Princess (our university has a Native American tribe as Mascots so instead of a crown or tiara and being called queen, the homecoming winner gets an authentic native american headdress and is called princess …). By some miracle and a bit of hard work and luck, I made the top 10. Anyway, an acquaintance of mine was chair of the Homecoming Committee, and every single time I ran into him, he said something to the effect of, “I know you’re gonna win.” Well of course he didn’t know that but there was something so convincing about his tone that in retrospect from the vantage point of having a lot more experience, I can assess the combo of tone and content as something less than “caring”/”interested in my welfare”. Maybe he is just one of those people who needs everyone to be happy so he was compelled by some inner need to say all of that instead of “good luck.” Who knows?
I suppose if my all grown up self heard that exact same comment now instead of then I would maybe crack a joke (i.e., where’s your crystal ball?) instead of praying that against all logic he was right. But it still kind of bugs me how he lasered in on my inner hopes of winning.
Manipulators they are everywhere. We all do it. Some are worse then others. Some do not even know they are doing it. When a person comes up to me and asks “where do you want this” or ” what do you want me to do with this” it tells me they do not want to take responsibility for the decision even if they know what they are supposed to do. It also provides them an opportunity to get out of doing what they are supposed to do.
Handle manipulators by being direct and sincere. Tell people what you expect and if you complement do it honestly. Do not let people get away with manipulation. Once you do it allows the door to be opened for further manipulation. They find out what buttons to push.
I have dealt with all types of manipulations from employees to people asking for money. It got to the point where people were coming in to our business and asking for money so they could buy baby formula and diapers (because the word gets out that you can be manipulated)
It stopped when we purchased some baby formula and diapers to give those people. Ajay is right when he said give them tasks with deadlines. if they ask what should I do with this tell them. Sometimes we must give the manipulator exactly what they are asking for. Baby formula and diapers instead of money.
Oh and Greg as long as you get the first and last letters correct I am told you can still read and understand it. I myself am a horrible speller and do not write much better. Thank goodness for spell check and typing!!!
Thanks everyone for the great insight. I find myself taking away something from each post.
I really like your baby formula example and it brings to mind several examples in my own life. I come from the school of thought that to those to which much has been given, much is expected. I don’t have a lot, but I realize I am better off than some others. One walk down the street in downtown Chicago usually means I am left with no pocket change. However, I have learned that $5 McDonald’s gift cards work just as well as cash for the beggar asking for money for food. Like you said, “Sometimes we must give the manipulator exactly what they are asking for.”
Dan, It’s hard sometimes to not buy into the flattery, if we’re feeling low emotionally. That’s obviously when we need the added strength to differentiate between an honest compliment and manipulation.
I tend to believe that the majority are genuine and if we’re confident in who we are, we’re less likely to be manupulated.
Your post was wonderful – generated some great comments.
You made a great addition to the conversation. Emotional lowness makes us vulnerable. I’ll add, fatigue and stress exacerbate the problem.
Thanks for the encouraging word and for adding value.
I think there is a fine line here.
You can’t suspect every kind deed or gesture to be a form of manipulation.
And in some cases “you scratch my back, and I’ll scratch yours” can turn into a great working relationship.
When returning a kindness becomes an expectation and a burden – that is when it qualifies as manipulation.
I agree, there is a fine line. And as others have said, it’s difficult to discern motives and manipulation is a matter of motive.
A barter relationship is common, healthy, and beneficial. It’s when we hide our intentions that I start getting squeamish.
Great comments. And then of course their is the worst manipulator of all – ourselves and the things we tell ourselves. Now what do we do about them!
I have just left being manipulated for the past four months. Luckily an event interceded and gave me the opportunity to see that all of things and bling were just a distraction to keep me around to fulfill a lonely void. For the past two weeks I have been back to myself-and… it. feels. great! A wolf in sheep’s clothing is still a wolf. My blog will resume this weekend.
focus on work processes and what is the best for company or team. If you don’t feed flatter conversations. Excellent and convenient post
What if the manipulative person is a psychotic stalker who is mad that you figured out what they are all about? I’ve tried everything from ignoring this person to exposing my situation with them and also trying to reason with them. They’ve done nothing, but make my life heck by using their “authority” to get me black-balled by all of the people at the church I used to attend, (their church,) threatening to sue me for slander, (even though all I’ve said is true,) and recently pushing me out of the studio I was recording at. This person is RELENTLESS and I think, nuts. I’m not sure how to handle it. Any suggestions?
I believe you. There are people in this world that, for whatever reason, are relentless and perhaps nuts. If they aren’t doing anything illegal, my suggestion is make any offenses you have committed right with them and move on. They may continue to do you damage. Taking an offense when you are innocent is the hardest thing to do. If you don’t move on, however, you’ll waste your energy fixing something that can’t be fixed. That’s my suggestion. Best, Dan
I’ve done that and she has continued to malign my character. I hope that it ends soon. She is really sick. And you are right, it has been a huge waste of energy! 🙂 Thanks for the encouragement. I think that I’m headed in the right direction with this. Although, she probably will follow me here and see this and take some sort of retaliative action.
Risa – I am also experiencing this type of bullying and triangulation. This person has ingratiated herself with church leadership and now, I suspect, may have triangulated a local human service agency. She has submitted a proposal to be the founder and residential manager in an addiction recovery center for women, and it looks like she will receive the funding.
I experienced direct bullying from her just like you describe but now that she has gained the foothold she wanted, and support from professionals in the area, my protestations appear weaker and more self-serving (as if I am jealous). I have tried ignoring her also. I have tried appealing to any sense of decency she may have left. I have gotten angry. The only time I engage is when I feel that triangulation which I felt just two days ago when I met with one of the agency people. The advice she gave me sort of put the blame on me. She said, “If you would get some cognitive behavioral therapy, you can practice saying things like, “I can see why you feel that way” to diffuse her. But, at the same time this person was giving me advice, she gave me a look that said she didn’t believe that I was not the one who was undermining. Just like this article, when I went home I felt more and more like I was being manipulated, that she had gone in the back door, maybe through the leader of the church who then connected with her contact at the agency. I sensed from some of the agency workers a little bit of fear. Something is wrong and I think this woman’s climb to power has something to do with it. What I really want to do is get to my final destination which is a larger city. I am a city person at heart and, although I see some benefits to rural life where I have stopped to regroup on my way to a life change, I think the rural areas are more susceptible, sometimes, to someone coming in and leap-frogging their unqualified way to the top.
I think if a person can withstand the stress from the game-playing, and emotional pummeling these people won’t win, or will tire after a while. My mistake was that I got mad. The support of the social group was really healing for me, the ready access to some activities, I had some things in common with the leader (she wasn’t unapproachable). I am not a religious person but this was a mainstream environment. The bad part was/is that churches often network among other social service agencies so if you are volunteering, if you have a career in mind in that venue, if you have friends there, if you are a philanthropic person, a bully who has targeted you can slowly destroy your reputation and your comfort level with their lies. The person who is jealous is them; it is actually the opposite of how it appears on the surface, and people don’t have the time or energy in their busy worlds, understandably, to think beyond this.
What is very important for all the authentic leaders to note in this conversation, the behavior you are seeing in the workplace with manipulators is also the same behavior of domestic violence in the home. These are one and the same person at varying degrees of violence. So, when you think of battered women, children, men, think of this personality we are talking about today. The woman battering Risa is the same personality, although in a man who is battering his wife. The difference only lay in phsyical strength, economic strength, and the power position they may have in society but, man or woman, they all use the same techniques as Ajay described.
I believe in authenticity also. I should have remained steadfast and not reacted to the behavior. But I don’t see how a person can really remain stoic with no relief. That relief has to come in the form of others who believe in authenticity. I thought the church leader was that person until she said that I was not to tell the bully that I had been invited to her home (on more than one occassion). It was to remain a secret. She said, “It will do me good to have you there. We have a lot in common. Give us both some relief”. So, that is a leader who is being manipulated, and allowing it because there is some payoff (“what’s in it for me?”). I am embarassed to even share that this happened. Needless to say, I am not friends with her, nor am I going to that church, and I am hoping to move on soon.
The church leader said she didn’t understand why I was hiding my personality, my intelligence, and my leadership ability. It is because people like her allow themselves to be manipulated in spite of the evidence. They can’t be counted on to directly fight manipulation and bullying. So, I’m protecting myself, that’s why.
I’m sorry, Lisa. 🙁 That sounds very familiar to what I’ve dealt with in the church realm more than once. I’ve found that getting away from anything that these types of people are involved with and also ignoring the snide, manipulative and insulting comments is the best route.
You are right, JEALOUSY and a thirst for POWER is what these people are all about. They are good at projecting what they are onto you. I’ve even had it where that person takes my good characteristics and adopt them as their own. I find this creepy, but I know who I am intrinsically, so she can say what she wants. It took me a long time to get to this point though.
It is like an abusive relationship and I am quick now to see these types of relationships and separate myself from them. They are not healthy and no amount of “love” that you give these people will change them, because they aren’t honest with themselves.
This person has also adopted my characteristics as her own, and I had the same reaction. It is very, very creepy. This person has been given the support of the church to start an addiction recovery house using Therapeutic Community techniques. She has manipulated the church staff. There will be 7 women here in this house subjected to an abusive personality. They will be women who have reached a certain point in their recovery where, if given the next push with this kind of support, can probably fully recover. However, I have watched my stress level when exposed to her at a close level. I have an emotional eating problem and I can tell you that I am a strong, mature woman, and if it triggers this amount of stress I am experiencing now, then these women (unless they are abusive themselves) will have a high relapse rate. This woman will also most likely create a mob mentality if any one of the women in recovery disputes her treatment. This woman sees any authentic, shared conversation as a direct challenge to her intelligence. Here self esteem is so low, and her victim mentality so great (in re maybe she didn’t get to have what I was given, for instance, in term of opportunity as a child), she immediately jumps to the “haves” and “have not” adversarial scenario. She doesn’t realize the person speaking to her thinks they are having a conversation with a confident, healthy human being. They don’t know what is going on inside of her.
I am not at all religious. I just happen to need more organizational support in my day to day living right now. I have seen the far left and far right fundamentalist operations of the religious community before, and they are quite cultish. This was more of a main stream environment but, this particular woman comes from the far, far right. I think, and please don’t take offense, there are people who don’t think critically in church environments. I hesitate to say it but, I think most are not too bright. On the kinder side, I can see where someone might want to reach for something or someone who can help beyond the realm of humanity because life can get so painful. I don’t blame anyone for exploring it. But, I will not ever, ever, ever, ever enter a church environment again after this.
Now, bear in mind everyone, these people might be found in church organizations but they are also working in corporations, in hospitals, in human services…they will find work wherever someone doesn’t look too closely at their credentials, usually working with vulnerable populations, unfortunately.
The leader of this church, by the way, is not a fundamentalist. She is an entrepreneurial, dynamic, personable, kind, California Canadian. Her downfall is the strong people pleasing feature of her personality to the point where she blurts out things without thinking, and a strong ambition and need to be popular and, perhaps, famous. The abusive woman I told you about feeding her ego lies and she is eating it up like a starved kitten. I do think she is naive. She has not been trained in domestic violence or bullying (or criminal behavior (which is inherent in both of these personalities). Men can attest to this…some women have avoided the real world by staying married (lucky them if it is a good marriage!)…some women have avoided the real world by having multiple, serial marriages, and some have ventured out on their own and learned the cold, hard truth of the world of men, a world that men have had to harden themselves to for centuries. The leader of this church took the serial marriage route (and she benefited quite handsomely, financially). She remained safe and warm. These women are much more likely to be ignorant to deeper machinations going on in the world. Men (and some women) can also attest that these sheltered women can be the bain of the corporate world’s existence because they are always causing trouble, the ignorant kind, pushing against proven processes just because they have been home watching too many soap operas. I cannot stand these little innocents. They need to go back home because they create chaos. I wouldn’t say the church leader is THAT naive but, I would say she definitely needs more training and boundaries as to why having some processes and rules can keep everyone safe.
So, this is how these things happen, how these nut jobs get access to our lives.
Let me point out that the pastor wanting to keep your getting together “secretly” kind of sends up a lot of red flags to me. She may have the excuse of not wanting the other woman to know, but she might also have an ulterior motive. BUT she may not either. I’ve found that manipulators tend to pack together.
If you want to chat ever, please email me at email@example.com and I’ll be happy to.
Sorry for the typing mistakes, grammatical errors. I know better but I get so passionate about this stuff that I am not taking the time I should.
“If they aren’t doing anything illegal, my suggestion is make any offenses you have committed right with them and move on. They may continue to do you damage. Taking an offense when you are innocent is the hardest thing to do. If you don’t move on, however, you’ll waste your energy fixing something that can’t be fixed. That’s my suggestion. Best, Dan.”
It was recommended that I say something like, “I can see why you feel that way”, or “I can understand that”. As Dan said above, taking the “offense” (or, in the therapeutic world, practicing cognitive behavioral therapy, or transactional analysis).
It doesn’t seem realistic to me, long term, but, what do you think, Risa? Could you have been able to do that and diffused it? I didn’t try it so I don’t know. If it really works, than couldn’t we all be trained and there would be a lot less crime?
I say take Dan’s advice, get the H-E-double-toothpick out of Dodge and find another support group. The drama is NOT worth it. Trust me.
I understand your concern for the other women in the group, but the manipulator(s) will only make you an enemy to these other women and make things worse. (DRAMA- they thrive on it.) Just leave and if one of the other women asks you about it, be honest about the situation without naming names. If they don’t ask you, just leave it be. If you are anything like me, a justice-freak, this will be VERY hard.
Excellent article, however, I disagree. There seem to be manipulators everywhere I turn. I am not looking for them, either. They find me. I’m getting better at spotting these types of people and faster at catching myself from falling into their trap.
This is all great!! church leaders are by far the greatest manipulators,and know how to make you look like you are the problem. It ought to make them think if they have the Fear of the Lord in thier hearts! It is nausiating to me,how leaders lie for eachother,and make you out to be a trouble make,and someone who is insecure,whe that is not even the case. Just a continual pattern,that is most likely coming from the Top!! It has to be,master manipulators messing with great hearted people who truly serve with all their hearts. Dont fall into the traps,..
Great topic Dan, thanks. It’s a bit frightening to have to look over your shoulder or speculate upon intent when you’re new to an organization or environment. It changes a person. If you’re unsure of a person’s motivation, then you tend to act in a way that may be perceived as disingenuous. It is a tough balance to maintain until you really become sure of the people you’re dealing with. In the meantime, it takes focus to ensure you don’t stray from your core beliefs or compromise your principles.
To answer your question, I think a good way to deal with manipulation is to challenge the person by accepting only straight talk and ask to get to the root of the issue when you’re interacting. Manipulators like to speak with fluff, the more you challenge them to get to the point, the sooner they’ll realize that you are not one to accept their manipulative ways. Watch their behaviors around others and don’t hesitate to approach the issues one-on-one. Thanks again.